The Flute Squad isn’t exactly rolling in cash, so when we buy stuff we do a lot of research in order to get the best value for our money. We certainly never skimp when it comes to quality, be it spending a few extra bucks per t-shirt for a nicer cut and material, paying monthly to be hosted here at Squarespace (for ease of use and their excellent analytics), or buying a microbrew for the kegerator. Our track record for not buying crap is pretty good.
I hope most bands would agree with our philosophy of buying quality gear. But I’m completely flabbergasted when I see a local band playing their third gig ever, and the guitar player pulls out a $1500 Fender Strat Deluxe. Even worse was when a metal guitarist we played with at The Black Hole Rock Club rolled in with a huge case filled with 7 guitars, all of which were easily over $1000 each. For a 30 minute set at The Black Hole?! In Dundalk!?!
Look expensive guitar guys, I get it, you have a small penis. But the ladies can’t tell the difference between your $2k Les Paul and my $150 Hondo II LP clone. They’re both shiny and sound the same blasted at high volume. You’re better off buying the cheap guitar and using the leftover cash for hairplugs.
Seriously, the only people who might be impressed that you’ve blown mucho moola on a really expensive guitar are other guitarists. So aside from the name on the headstock, what is the point of spending the extra money on a high-end Strat or Les Paul? Well, let’s run down a list of features to see if we can sort this out. We’ll compare a mid-level Gibson Les Paul and a mid-level Agile from Rondo Music.
| $2000 Gibson Les Paul Standard
-Mahogony Body -Set Mahogany Neck -Rosewood Fretboard -Grover Tuners -Alcino Pickups -Case with Gibson Logo on it |
$370 Agile-3000 LP Knock Off
-Mahogany Body -Set Mahogany Neck -Ebony Fretboard -Grover Tuners -Alcino Pickups -No Case ($60 extra) |
So…. Yeah, not much difference in features. To be fair, the pickups are different, so let’s add in another $130 to match those (Burstbucker 3 is $60 on Ebay and a 57 Classic is $70). But let’s subtract $50 because the Agile’s ebony fretboard is actually more expensive than the rosewood on the LP. Do the math and the price you’re paying for the Gibson logo on the headstock and case is $1490. That’s just bullshit and a monstrously huge fucking rip-off to boot.
“But the Les Paul plays so much better!” I hear guitar snobs whine.
No. Wrong. Fail.
With a proper setup the Agile will play just as well as the Gibson, and to be honest the Agile folks probably spend more time setting up the guitar before it leaves the shop than Gibson does. So out of the box the Agile might actually play better! Plus, “better” is a relative term anyway. What feels good to you might feel like shit to me. What if I like my strings to be 1-inch off the fretboard? With either guitar you’re probably going to have to spend some time tinkering with the bridge, truss rod, and pickup height to get it to where it feels best for you.
“But the Les Paul sounds so much better!” those same snobs shout.
Really? You’re going to tell me that with the same wood and pickups you’re going to be able to tell a difference? Here’s a challenge: go to Guitar Center and ask someone to take an expensive guitar (Les Paul, Strat, Tele, or whatever) and a cheapo clone with similar specs off the wall. Turn your back on that person and have them play both guitars through the same amp, randomly switching back and forth between the guitars while playing a variety of riffs, leads, jazz chords, etc. After each switch-off, tell me which one sounded better.
I bet that:
a) you won’t be able to tell the difference
or
b) if you can tell the difference you’ll prefer the cheapo knock-off 50% of the time.
In fact, DMFS is willing to put our money where our mouth is. If anyone wants to take us up on this blind listening test, we will give you $100 in cash if you’re able to pick out the expensive guitar more than 80% of the time. Message us here on the board and we’ll work out a time to meet up at Guitar Center or Bill’s Music! (of course if you lose, you’ll have to be Horsepower’s personal butler for a week)
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter how much the guitar costs. What matters is the person playing it. If you suck you’re going to suck just as bad on an expensive guitar, and if you’re awesome you’ll be able to make any guitar sound good.
Case in point:
Hey guys-
By in large I agree with you. I’ve owned a dozen fathead Squire strats, and out of those 9 of them were goddamned screaming, fast, awesome workhorse guitars. (I build and mod guitars as a side business – if you look up Villanizer or Nautilus by Thunder Eagle Guitars, they’re all over the net)
I have no use for 1K and over guitars either, and I’ve never met one worth the money.
Now, that said, I can tell the difference in sound from the Squires to a 1970 Classic Strat. I dunno, they just sound less full than what they try to copy. Tinny? I guess is the word I’m after. But, I play through a GSP2101 and a Trace Elliot Super Quad whateverthefuck, so just about anything sounds good.
But, I hear a difference. Maybe it’s psychological?
One thing though – comparison parts of overseas guitars isn’t all that fair unless you can source the parts as real – for instance Grover machines could be faked Grovers with less quality parts and metals. They can manufacture anything overseas to look legit – from Oakley sunglasses to Breitling watches – and they’re fuckin hard to tell. But, quality parts and materials make a difference. Then again, 120 bucks for a fathead Squier strat – whaddaya want? Gold plated? Ya get what ya pay for. I get sick of people saying Squiers are crap. That’s bullshit.
But, parts and quality materials might make the difference.
I can say one thing, I’ve played some shit expensive guitars and some kick ass junk.
People pay for branding. In the case of most guitar companies, they build up early good will and jack up the prices as demand increases. I own a few agiles, including an AL-3500, and it easily hangs with most gibson lp’s which cost easily 5x the price. Same goes with mexican strats vs. american. There are small improvements in American strats, but you are really probably better off (bang for buck wise) just getting a mexican and dropping $200 into it (better pups, locking tuners, and a non-zinc trem block).
For so many guitarists, their guitar is the equivalent of a womans purse. It becomes an accessory, not just a tool.
Welcome to the site Jeff and Germanicus, and thanks for posting!
One point that you both bring up is that the cheaper knock-offs might have inferior parts, and you’re absolutely right about that. It’s something I didn’t go into too much in the article, but I do feel that the majority of cheapo guitars would do well to have pickup and tuner upgrades (and a bridge upgrade if it’s a floyd). Replacing these parts is something every serious guitarist should know how to do, but even if you had it done by a pro you’d still be saving a ton with the knock-offs.
Jeff – those guitars are amazing!!! Horsepower is a huge 20K Leagues fan, and he’s going to crap his pants when he sees this. http://www.thundereagleguitars.com
Thanx dude. My website’s a f**kin mess because I let the yearly payment thing slip by. But it all still works I think. I’m working on 2 more now, so there’s gonna be some more ridiculous ones a-comin.
Tahnx again,
Jeff
Oh, and a word about Mexican Strats vs U.S. – Yes, some parts are a little higher in quality, but the big reason for the huge difference in price (and this comes straight from the Fender rep I used to deal with: You can paint 24 hours a day in Mexico – not so here in the U.S. where OSHA laws prohibit it.
This makes a big difference in overall cost vs American – in a very large way, they are the same damn guitars.
I believe U get what U pay for..and there are differences in the quaility of the woods and attention to details given. I dont play crappy guitars so I wouldnt know the differences, but its most important for ME to know Im playing top notch stuff. I dont care what the girls think or anyone else for that matter. Most people dont care but me and the musicians know I got a mean axe.
Well, to each his own, Ken. But you should give those cheapos a shot! You might like them even more than your expensive ones. Those Agiles are such mean axes they’ll chop your dick off, eat it, and then glue themselves to where your dick used to be and fuck your girlfriend, laughing at you the whole time.
Interesting, Jeff. I much prefer a natural wood, non-glossy look (kinda like a Washburn N4) to a sunburst or other sort of finish. So I guess I’m doing my part to save Mexicans from lung cancer!
I read your posts often, and I generally think your observations are on point. I agree with many of your postulates in this one, but I’m interested in a hundred bucks. I’ll put my Ibanez Jem (which i don’t drag to most gigs because it’s pretentious and ‘annoying’ as you put it) up against any knockoff or low-end, even with someone else playing it. I am aware that most of that is due to the pickups, but heck, find something else with Evolutions and I’ll still lay odds that I’d recognize the sound of mine. I would also point out that a lot of guys buying Gibs or hi-end Fenders are buying them for the FEELING of being big-time. hard to feel big-time when playing a Cort.
Flipside, when on stage, I play a modded squier and two beat-ass starfields that were Atomic Music hidden treasures, and they serve me better than anything aside from the Jem.
~brennan
(years ago, in even so)
(now in petal blight)
Great post guys and keep them coming. I have a used jackson performer which i paid $400 for and I prefer it to my 75 Strat which i have never been able to get perfectly in tune. Great vid of Joe.
Hey Brennan, I do remember you from Even So! So cool that you’re following the blog! Everyone, check out his band here. They have a show coming up at the Metro Gallery (awesome venue!) on 6/24/10.
Actually, you’ve hit upon one of the possible exceptions to this article: there are some Ibanez and other specialty guitars (such as Parkers, Rickenbackers, and the Washburns with the Stephen’s Extended Cutaway) that are probably worth the cash because they have features that are really tough to duplicate on the low end.
That said, do you think you could tell the difference between a lower-end RG-series with Evolution pickups and your Jem? Granted, the playability wouldn’t be the same, but I’d guess they’d probably sound very similar. Vai always sounded pretty good in the old days when he was using an RG. Hell, he sounded about the same when he was using a Strat!
We do have a cheapo here with Evo2 pickups…. wonder if it would be worthwhile to do the shootout against your Jem?
Yeah, it can be hard to feel "big time" with a Cort, but I was on national TV with a no-name S-Series clone (actually taped off the logo because the manufacturer wouldn’t give us the time of day) and that experience would have felt awesome no matter what guitar I was using! Hahaha.
Some of those Squires are pretty great guitars that I’d hold up to a MIA Strat any day of the week.
Thanks,
"Father" Ryan
Thanks for the encouragement Scott Harthausens! Nothing wrong with a Jackson, that’s for damn sure!!! Best part of the Joe vid is how he keeps reaching for the non-existent whammy bar.
Hey guys,
Interesting challenge you have put forth. One I don’t think I’d accept as I probably couldn’t tell the difference. I’m a guitar snob just because I like nice guitars. I’ve had a mim strat for almost 20 years and played the hell out of it until it started giving me problems. Switches, jacks etc. It’s been in the case for the last five or six years now as I can’t trust it anymore not to cut out. I’ll take a soldering gun to it one of these days. I went to Guitar center to look at PRS. Too much money for me at the time so I bought a Guild Bluesbird AAA that they were trying to blow out. It’s been a great guitar. I play it about everyday and it has never let me down.
I also like the idea of keeping our luthiers busy in this country. I’d hate to see them have to move to China, Korea or – god forbid – Mexico to find work. I also like the idea that my guild and Martin acoustic will (maybe) both appreciate with age. My old strat is worth about the $300 I paid for it. I do think there’s a difference playing an American strat versus a MIM. My buddy has a Strat Ultra and it is much quieter than the MIM when plugged in. The Mim hums and crackles. Of course that it my cheap switches and cheap pots.
That being said, there are some great cheaper guitars out there making it possible for new players to get in the game which is ultimately what it’s all about.
Keep up the good work.
Hey Pete, thanks for your post! One way to look at it is that if everyone buys cheap crappy guitars they’re keeping their local repair guy in business. Hahaha!
You’re right that there is definitely something to be said for buying American, but I just wish it wasn’t so expensive to do so.
Another good point you bring up is that the cheapos help new kids get into playing. Back when I was a kid the cheap guitars were nearly unplayable, and I bet that kept a lot of kids from taking up guitar. But now anyone with $100 can get a playable guitar and amp, which is really incredible and will hopefully create a new generation of top-notch shredders!
Q: What does a crappy guitar player with really expensive gear sound like?
A: A crappy guitar player with really expensive gear
LOL, Steven!
It also works the other way: A great player with crappy gear will still be able to make that gear sound great (e.g., that Satriani vid!).
The best guitars I have are rejects, cheapos, home mades and a variety of other bastard children. I spend the money on pickups and decent hardware, but the core guitars are low budget. I’ve bought into the "hype" and had a few PRS’s, high dollar G&L’s & Gibsons, but everyone of them was put in the wind. I have a couple "branded" guitars that just work and were low cost – Gibson BFG LP and a Reverse V – but everything else is parts pieces. I see these dudes playing Suhr’s and PRS and all these other esoteric guitars and just can’t figure it out. It doesn’t make them play any better – they don’t sound any better (and I’ll argue anyone on that point). The argument that "a musician will know I have a badass axe" is so ridiculous it makes me giggle real hard like a 10 yr old school girl. I define my guitar – my guitar does not define me. Is someone who’s blind going to give a rats ass what brand name you’re playing? Hell no – he’s gonna care what it sounds like – which at the end of it all, is all that matters.
Fuck yeah, J-Lo! Checked out your soundclick page and you’re definitely getting some monster tones, and those cheap guitars obviously aren’t keeping you from playing like a fucking demon! Excellent vibrato, BTW. Do you play in band, too?
I probably couldn’t hit 80% on an RG loaded with EVO’s… cause that’s what a Jem is. The reasons I like it are at least partially because when I first walked into Chuck’s at age 14 I said "that one" and it turned out to be a Jem. In no way do I play like Vai, but I appreciate the little tweaks that make it worth a little bit more dime to me. There are gajillions of knockoffs of the Jem, but they all screw some detail up that would bother me.
thanks for the linkage – I’ll keep reading, keep flutesquadding.
~brennan
No problem, Brennan. Enjoy that Jem! The upper fret scallops are super-cool, for sure.
I play a Raven RP-450. This guitar is no longer in production. PRS sued this company for copyright infringment. They issued a "Cease & Desist Order" against this compnay. This guitar is basically a Korean copy of a PRS Hollowbody. Same woods. Same scale. Same body design. Headstock is a little different. It has cheap hardware. I replaced the hardware & changed everything over on this guitar: "Tone Pros" Locking Bridge & Tailpiece. Gibson Classic 57 Plus pickups in the bridge, Gibson Classic 57 in the neck pickup. Graph Tech nut on the neck. Gotoh Locking Tuners. I also got the neck PLEKED. (Computerized fret leveling & crowning).I bought this guitar for $325 USD. I spent $700 in "upgrades". This guitar playes BETTER than a PRS (PLEK). This guitar sounds better than a PRS.
PRS guitars are WAY over priced.They’re not worh the $$$$. I know……. I use to work there before I got a "real" job. I’ve been playing 30 years here’s the bottom line: The name on the headstock means VERY little. The ONLY people who care about the name on the headstock are other musicians.
DON’T WORRY ABOUT WHAT COUNTRY YOUR GUITAR COMES FROM. DON’T WORRY ABOUT THE NAME ON THE HEADSTOCK. All that matters is what kinda music you play and will your guitar be able to handle the style of music you play. That’s all that matters.
Brennan, to follow up on what Ryan said, I have a mid-range Ibanez, one of the ones made in Korea. It probably cost around $500 when I bought it new in 2000, considerably more than what Ryan’s paid for his guitars. It’s taken just as much money and effort to turn it into a satisfactory instrument as Ryan’s Chinese eBay specials (EVO pickups, aftermarket replacement Floyd for the craptastic Ibanez LO-TRS II). Now you won’t have to go through that on a higher end Japanese-made Ibanez, but is that $1000+ price differential worth it for $200-300 in parts and a few hours of your time?
Jem’s a beautiful instrument though, I won’t argue that. And exclusive enough to retain some of it’s value. No way I’d take it to a club around here though. I’d be scared to let it out of my site for long enough to take a piss.
BTW, you can scallop your own frets in about 30 minutes with a round file. I wouldn’t do it on something with a nice inlay (like your Jem), but it works great on a regular ol’ fretboard. You’ll have to spend some more time with spandpaper, a buffing cloth, and wood polish if you want to look pretty, but if you just care about function it doesn’t take any time at all.
I remember those Ravens, Bernardo, and they did look like very nice guitars. I had no idea they were shut down by PRS. That’s pretty lame, especially since PRS recently came out with a single cut-away that looks suspiciously like a Les Paul.
Where did you get the PLEK’ing done?
King Curtis is correct, I have expensive tastes but little cash. Here’s what I need in a guitar:
1. 24 frets
2. Set/thru neck (or something like Stephen’s Extended Cutaway – I just can’t stand heel joints)
3. Gotoh floyd or another brand with good stability and a low-profile bar
4. H-S-H pickup config (w/a high-output bridge like Evo2 and a noiseless single coil)
5. Non-gloss finish (my hands and arms stick to glossy finishes and it annoys me)
Finding such a config in an off-the-shelf guitar is nearly impossible without paying over $800, so I basically just got a cheapo with a set neck and 24 frets and then replaced all of the hardware and did some routing. I got two of them just in case one breaks, because this setup is so crucial to my playing style and sound.
So, yeah, this is the sort of thing that matters to me in a guitar. I couldn’t care less what the name on the headstock says.
-"Father" Ryan
If you would get off your high horse for just a sec I’d like to point t out two things.
1. One of the things you pay for with a lot of expensive guitars is the fact that they are not made by underpaid near slave-wage workers. Maybe it’s idealistic to care about how your axe is made. But if there is any place for such idealism, isn’t it your music?
2. When you pay your guitar through crappy effects, and a crappy amp it really doesn’t matter what guitar you play. Thats fine if thats the sound you’re going for (as it seems to be with your band). Plenty of clubs are not going to have the greatest sound or attentive audience either. But if you care about tone, then not only is a gibson les paul different from a knock off, but every gibson is different from each other, as every piece of wood resonates uniquely.
Hi, "Not a Snob"!
Your point 1 is well-taken. I guess that’s a personal moral decision, but I still don’t think that because something is Made In America it should justify an extra $1500. I’d buy everything MIA if the price difference wasn’t so huge.
As far as point 2, we get a tone that we like through our cheap guitars, "crappy effects", and "crappy amps", so that’s really a taste issue. Personally, I’m very particular about my tone, to the point of trying out a bunch of different guitars and pickup combinations to suit each song (moreso in the studio than live). I’m pretty happy with what my cheapo guitars are giving me, and I don’t for a second believe that a more expensive guitar could give me a tone that was worth an extra $1K.
But if you like expensive guitars and you think you need them for your tone, then that’s cool. It’s folks like you who keep these big name manufacturers in business, and far be it from me to wish any company to go down the tubes, especially in this economic climate.
Hey – Thanks for listening to some of my stuff. Yeah, I’m in a band around here called SlantSix – we’re blues/rock which is a bit different from the stuff on my Soundclick page
It’s a new band so we’re just starting to pick up some gigs.
Yeah, that guitar stays at home, unless I need the trem for something… I think the key is to have a consciousness about the Function of the equipment, not necessarily the Form. I did scallop the frets of an Ibanez once upon a time, but long since sold that in favor of some random tele-looking Framus.
Sometimes it’s just fun to play in a guitar store…
~brennan
I kinda come at this from a different angle. I’m not into the import knockoffs more because it seems like the motivating factor is "I want the LP Standard look/sound but can’t/don’t want to pay the $$ for one" which is kind of lame to me. If I wanted an LP, and had the cash id probably hunt around pawn shops for a Studio before id go get a new Aria somewhere. Actually, my LP-ish guitar is a semi hollow ESP Eclipse whick probably makes my argument invalid, bur I’m allowed to be a hypocrite.
I got it for a great price and it plays great to me. It’s my ‘pretty’ guitar though and I’m terrified of dropping it so it spends most of its time in its case.
My two main guitars are from the 80s…not old enogh to be ‘vintage’ yet. A USA made Peavey T60 and a MIJ Ibanez Roadstar. Rock solid beater guitars that can be snagged on eBay for under $300. Sounds good, feels good, and quality parts….well except for the junk ‘Pro Rok’r’ bridge on the Roadstar I keep meaning to replace.
Hey Scott, thanks for checking out the site and commenting!
Oooh, those Peavey T60s are so cool! What kind of pickups are those?
But, yeah, you’re right, the motivating factor for buying the knock-offs is definitely "I want an xxx but I can’t afford it." I don’t see anything wrong with that, but if you can find an LP Studio for $100 more than a knock-off, then why not, right? Personally, I’m not a big fan of LPs or Strats or their knock-offs, but I still have one of each around for when we need that particular "sound" in the studio. But they don’t get used enough for me to justify spending more than $150 on them!
I’m also noticing a common theme here where a lot of people aren’t willing to gig with their expensive or "nice" guitars because they don’t want them to get damaged or stolen. So are these mostly getting used in the studio, or are they sitting around in their cases most of the time? No judgement calls here, just curious.
"Father" Ryan
Thoughts on bass guitars?
Hey Butler! We feel the same way about bass guitars. We have a $100 DeArmond that got used for almost every track on our new album because it just sounded awesome. It also plays great and has held up to heavy gigging.
More to the point of this article, I bought a Rogue Hofner clone a few years ago that sounds amazing (I put flatwounds on it, of course!). And wouldn’t you know it, once Hofner realized that other companies were getting rich making cheap clones of their basses, they came out with their own cheap version, which was probably sourced at the same Chinese factory but costs $100 more than the Rogue because it says "Hofner" on the headstock. FAIL!
"Father" Ryan
Although always open to new ideas. I am struggling with this. A Ken Smith, Lakeland, American Fender, Padula, high end Warwicks, Modulus, etc, play and sound like unsalted butter melting on a slab of Kobe beef. What say you about very succesful artists who play very expensive instruments?
I do – btw – enjoy your blog, and find it entertaining.
-Butler
Hi Butler, glad you’re enjoying the blog!
I absolutely agree that those expensive brands you name DO play like butter, and they damn well better for that amount of cash! But there are a lot of cheaper brands that can play just as well with a proper setup and a little customization.
My guess is that high-profile artists don’t even bother with cheapo guitars because they don’t need to! But for us normal people with a mortgage and a regular 9-5, it’s important to shop around and find the best deal you can. And with guitars, the best deal is usually not the expensive name brand.
It’s all a moot point anyway. As long as it stays in tune and doesn’t hurt to play, a good guitarist is going to be able to make any guitar sound good, no matter how cheap.